>> hello and welcome, you're watching "debate." has washington gone too far bite use dropping on its closest european allies? not according to david cameron. his wrath is rather directed towards the whistleblower that has been leaking information to newspapers. among the latest revelations,

the german chancellor xfone tapped for over a decade. -- the german chancellor's phone tapped for over a decade. intelligence services answer to the white house. we will talk about it in the debate. we will also be checking in and the media fallout of all this. the hour begins in the newsroom. >> we look at reforming the patriot act. the white house reacts to the latest planes. france and the netherlands, bringing down trees that caused power cuts and transport chaos. and an unexplained car crash in beijing's tnm kinnamans kinnaman

square. it was spain's turn to summon the ambassador on allegations that the u.s. collected data on telephone calls from spain. this is based on documents provided by edward snowden. >> arriving for an uncomfortable meeting, the u.s. ambassador in major it has questions to answer after a spanish newspaper published elite documents showing u.s. intelligence services tracked more than 60 million phone calls made in spain between december and january of this year. a massive 3.5 million calls in one day. they say the monitoring appears to track where the calls were made and how long they lasted,

but not their content. the spanish government has demanded full details about what information was collected from their citizens. >> as always, we learn about what is going on after it has happened. that is how it is with american intelligence. they are always ahead of us. >> it is a disgrace they are spying on governments and ministers. we will see what happens, but to me, this is a very serious violation. >> it comes after the prime rejected calls for an eu wide no-spying agreement. they wanted more information before supporting the special arrangement with the united states. he white house has denied that president obama was aware that chancellor on the low merkel was being tapped. -- angela merkel was being

tapped. they discussed the surveillance rogue rams -- programs. they warned of lasting damage to the transatlantic relationship. >> over the weekend, the white house was quiet, not commenting on the spy scandal. press secretary jay carney said that there may need to be additional constraints placed on america's spy agencies. >> there are a number of efforts underway designed to increase transparency, work with congress to look at reforms of the patriot act. to look at ways that we can increase oversight, increase constraints on the authorities provided by these programs. separately, there is a review underway that will look at, among other issues, some of the

very specific things in regards to the intelligence gathering. including matters that deal with heads of state and other governments. >> joining me from washington is our correspondent. president obama is under pressure and letting his press secretary do the talking for him. what else to jay carney have to say? >> these were carefully worded statements from mr. carney. they say they do not and they will not monitor communications, but no mention of previous communications in the past. and striking a careful balance as well. they say they do extraordinary work protecting americans at home and abroad. they say mr. obama should be bucking up the intelligence services and defending them rather than weakening them or apologizing.

when it came to criticism, this ongoing review of the work was announced earlier in the summer. the latest safeguards in place for americans and others. it shows that the u.s. is at least acknowledgin it is not just an american issue. it is now wider in effect, people in europe as well. that work is ongoing and it will be finished by the end of the year. >> thank you very much, reporting from washington. it has brought down trees in the

north with winds of over 130 kilometers an hour. one woman was killed. worst affected was the u.k.. the storm forcing the cancellation of schools at heathrow. many homes were left without power. >> in the camden neighborhood, just like other parts of the capital, some roads have been cut off after a fierce storm battle to southern england. they have dubbed the storm saint jude for the patron saint of lost causes. those that camp despite warnings spent a rough night. >> i am not scared of the elements, but that really did get me going. >> on the other side of the channel, tourists found

themselves stranded. >> we are making the most of it and using the time to change the oil. >> they struggled at times to reach their destination. it was even worse the previous night. >> we thought it was going to die -- we were going to die because it is so rocky and crazy, the storm. >> like any other countries on the ground, rescue forces have been working hard to help those injured five flying debris and falling trees. >> penn state university says it is paying close to $60 million

to 26 young man over claims of child sexual abuse at the hands of former assistant football coach jerry sandusky. this after negotiations lasting about a year. 23 deals have been signed and it faces six other claims. sandusky continues to maintain his innocence. 35 migrants being smuggled to algeria died of thirst and dehydration in the sahara desert after the truck broke down. that is according to the mayor. it happened two weeks ago and the news emerged after the survivors managed to make it out of the desert. 60 people were traveling into trucks when one of them broke down about 50 kilometers north. in china, a probe is being launched after a vehicle crashed killing five people. three in the car and two bystanders.

it is generally kept under tight security. >> a plume of black smoke rises from the square. police have blocked access to the site, one of the best guard in the country with key buildings and institutions nearby. the security lockdown has begun. >> your for bidden to film. you can't go there. >> a car crashed into the crowded front of the main entrance of the for bidden city and caught fire. several people were killed and dozens injured, including foreign tourists. two reporters approached the sights and were temporarily detained. with images deleted from their digital equipment, pictures of the flaming wreck were posted on the internet only to be deleted within minutes. authorities seemed reluctant to communicate on the incident. >> i don't know the incident.

i need to learn the specifics of it. if they were involved in any kind of case, they would manage it appropriately. >> may speculate on the reasons behind the car crashed. others speak of a possible car bomb that exploded in a restricted area. tiananmen square is a symbol of communist china where those have staged protests in the past. it was the scene of violent repression of students that were taken to the streets. in 2001, members of her religious cult set themselves on fire there. security forces are constantly deployed on tiananmen square. >> that is it from the newsroom for now. time to cross for the debate. >> to say the secret is out is

putting it mildly. it washington facing a flurry of revelations about its most secretive spy agency. we have heard about angela merkel's phone being tapped. spying on 34 other nations. 7 million conversations recorded in france. 60 million telephone calls in spain. all the work of the nsa. former nsa contractor edward snowden uncovered it. it the steady drip of revelations about the u.s.'s eavesdropping agency is a full- blown gusher. spying isn't new, but cell phoes and computers are. can rules be agreed upon and binding e they have final say. the $52 billion u.s. intelligence. the white house denies an

allegation that barack obama was personally briefed in 2010 about spying on the germans. will it wash? is the nsa out of control? a retired cia officer. joining us here is our guest, all about protecting companies. a lawyer specializing in intellectual property, information technology, the list runs long. and from the research center on intelligence.

thank you for joining the conversation. many of you have been joining the conversation. i want to start with the latest. not washington, berlin, or madrid, but london. unless the newspapers begin to behave more responsibly, his government is likely to act to stop papers from publishing what he calls damaging leaks by edward snowden. what do you think of that? >> david cameron calling on the government to stop -- >> he told parliament this monday that unless they begin to be --newspapers begin to behave more responsibly, he has called on legislation to stop them from publishing. >> it is the classic debate of the right of the public to know what is happening and to be sure

that their rights are enforced. the interests of states to protect national security. the revelations seen this summer, the extent of this find is necessary strictly to protect the interests of national security. ordinary citizens are having their personal data online collected in this dragnet. >> do you agree with david cameron that newspapers like the guardian have gone too far? >> totally. this is not only illegal under u.s. law, but also immoral and totally undemocratic. the use of it is under question today, whether it was useful at all.

the end result is negative. >> newspapers like the guardian should be prosecuted, or the nsa in the wrong? the nsa is totally in the wrong, acting illegally under u.s. law, acting immorally under the international way of doing things, and in a totally undemocratic fashion. it is following the lead of the nsa, why it is taking such a big political risk. >> i am rather skeptical that

president obama says he did not know of such actions. this would have been done under the directions of that time. i did not know there was a standard for moral behavior under international law. every country does what it thinks is in its own interest. >> i think there are maybe two categories of copulation. those having political power. it is a matter of foreign

policy. the other category deals with millions of people for which you have information from private service providers. you can ask them to provide information before providing it to the nsa. first, you have the harvest everything. this is under the category of population outside the scope of international security. which is quite wider than other countries.

it is not a solution that we have in europe, and that is why when we see this data collected, we cannot only think of fighting against terrorism, but also thinking about offering things like that. >> we say it is about stopping terrorists, but is it about having a competitive edge, trolling for consumer behaviors and getting an edge on the competition in an economic war rather than a war on terrorism? >> everybody is paying everybody. they collect data.

imagine 42% increase since 2010. everybody is collaborating with this kind of cyber espionage and criminality. it is not a question of one or the other, everyone is doing that. in 2012, they had $50 billion. we have to protect europe, they are against those acts -- >> are you saying that the outrage in europe is because we are behind? >> we have those questions of communication.

the first attack like that, it is the case. it is a question of communications. >> you guys work on this. a lot of people are shocked. the u.s. has had its third ambassador after berlin and paris. this time, to madrid. >> as always, we learn about what is going on after it has happened. >> it is a disgrace that they are spying on governments and residents. this is a very serious violation. >> in berlin, they are

particularly angry. they said it is thanks to the listening post inside of germany where the nsa did it's snooping there. we have more on the story from nicholas. >> she loves her mobile phone and has known to protect colleagues frequently. however, that phone has become the center of a diplomatic and media storm. they said the u.s. embassy in berlin was monitoring her. headlined that the u.s. president barack obama knew that angela merkel was being spied on. he did not stop it. the nsa denies ever discussing with obama. those allegations will be discussed when intelligence officials go for clarification. they point out if the eu

strapping is confirmed, it is illegal. they ignore knowledge -- they acknowledged washington taking a hit. >> the unfortunate aspect is that mr. snowden has divulged a lot of information that is damaging to the united states. >> the headline reports of obama saying to merkel, i knew nothing. german politicians are looking for a full parliamentary investigation. >> you said earlier that you are dubious as to whether barack obama is correct when his spokesman says that he did not know and that he was not privy to a conversation. do you feel for the german interior minister that made a trip back in july and we have

these further revelations? >> presidents and diplomats tell little white lies to each other all the time for appearances sake. it is rather expected that obama has to say, i did not know about this. just when french intelligence has been caught in years past spying on american companies and the president had to say i had no idea, i am shocked. the fact that the u.s. was listening to chancellor merkel's phone, if that is true, i think that is fine. what makes the germans think that we have such a special bond that they are exempt from what is going on in our foreign policy e i know it sounds cynical, but there are people that fought.

don't think of germany as our best ally in the entire world. >> what kind of information are you looking for when you listen in to the phone conversation of the german chancellor ? >> if she is having a conversation with president hollande, we don't care. if she has a conversation with vladimir putin about what to do about syria, we would like to know about that. can i talk quickly about the 70 million phone records? the purpose of those is the toll date. who called who. that is important because if the nsa finds a terrorist in madrid, we would probably like to know who that was two and we might

like to know what other numbers that they called elsewhere. >> in the french press over the weekend, there was an entirely different explanation. the idea was to establish who is friends with two over, not the short-term, but the long-term. to profile people. >> there is a lot that people don't know about signal intelligence. if you track down who is calling who, you have to keep those records month after month. maybe two years from now. you don't want to go back and find out who was calling who. in a perfect world, this would not be going on. that same perfect world had n

wars and no drug smugglers. >> why are european leaders acting like they don't do the same? >> this is not targeted. the americans today or the american intelligence community considers all americans terrorists. consider all europeans as terrorists. in the same fashion, senator kennedy could not get into an airplane because he had an irish name and was considered a terrorist. we have a problem in the vision

of american intelligence communities. >> he was saying this is no big news, we know that world leaders spy on one another. international law actually is quite tolerant of this. it doesn't outright ban spying at all. it can be a useful tool in the conduct of international relations. what is different here is the amplitude of the surveillance for regular people who do not hold public office and do not engage in terrorist activities who still find their data harvested. it poses the question of what kind of society we want to live in and the balance of liberty and security. how badly do you want security? how many personal freedoms will you give up? >> we will pick up on that point

when we come back.

>> before we resume, we will give you a sample of the stories that we will be following at the top of the hour. a rash of storms, a big one across northern europe. seven killed so far in those storms in britain, hitting parts of northern france, netherlands, and germany transport chaos also noted there.

prime minister david cameron tells parliament that unless -- in beijing, an unexplained car crash leaves five dead. a flashpoint for disgruntled citizens. unless they begin to behave more responsibly, newspapers could be prevented from publishing damaging leaks. the nsa probe scandal we have been following for you. this is the debate and we are asking if the nsa is out of control, talking about jean arthur coyle, a former cia agent that teaches in indiana university in bloomington. a company that protects companies from cyber attacks, an attorney specializing in intellectual property,

information technology, and data protection. from geneva, from the research center on intelligence. before we resume the conversation, let's say hello to james. we have been talking about it. i>> #handygate is one of the trending topics on social media. very much a topic of conversation in germany. across the spectrum, articles are being shared under the #nsa

on social media. allegedly, obama was aware of all this going back to 2010. but then we see the nsa allegedly never told obama. it is classified information, so it is very difficult to verify and, of course, the big news of the day was spain. it was interesting to see glenn greenwald tweeting in advance. >> the blogger working with edward snowden. >> if you go back to when his partner was arrested, he is going to be much more aggressive

-- it has been a solid and consistent drip of information keeping the story on the front pages. it would be dealt with at the same time. this is maintaining the story. a humorous note, the #nsapi ckuplines, being funny on social media. we just met, but i feel like i already know everything about you. also, cartoons with obama in the form of a satellite. merkel is telling him off and reading the riot act. she says, tell me anything good. i suppose it points to a lot of

what people say about the u.s., that this espionage thing is not just the americans. it is a global phenomenon. >> james with our media watch segment right there. we are talking in part one of our discussion that the white house has been playing coy. there will be a review of the patriot act, the legislation put forth by the executive order -- is it law? >> it is law, one good example of how american privacy laws have been slowly loosened since the post-9/11 days to make way for easier surveillance. and to make easier surveillance of foreign targets. as soon as foreign intelligence is involved, there are very few

restrictions on wiretapping. >> the white house saying that there will be a review. details quite vague. back in june, visiting berlin on the heels of the initial revelations, barack obama assured his hosts that it was all under control. >> i explained to chancellor merkel that i came into office committed to protecting the american people but also committed to our values and our ideals. and one of our highest ideals of civil liberties and privacy. i was a critic of the previous administration for those occasions in which i felt they had violated our values and i came in with a healthy skepticism about how the various programs were structured.

>> the worst of it all, merkel was spied on for a decade and her own security agency had no clue. barack obama, you heard him grappling, but as we have been saying, the focus has not been that big a story. a correspondent telling us it is not that big a story. while this is happening and they are spying on foreigners, they don't care. >> the intelligence surveillance act, most of it comes from this law. that was also a question of this terrorism issue.

the thing that we see now from europe is that we don't have the same means. we are far behind that. >> we don't have the same means and the other thing you brought up is, is it really fighting terrorism? mike rogers said over the weekend that the french citizens would be a plotting and popping champagne corks. it keeps our european allies safe. they talked about how the nsa spies on the whole planet, seeming dubious about keeping the world safe for reasoning. it is a bogus pretext. the monitoring of the internet

has not prevented any attacks. not even that of boston. their perpetrators were surfing all day on the web. general alexander says he has managed to stop 50 terrorist attacks. the french saying that we don't see that. what is your reaction? >> why is it when the head of the nsa says something, journalists don't believe a word he says? but any piece of paper handed out by a friend of edwards noted is stated as the gospel truth? a small editorial comment about journalism. the u.s. government has shared, on a number of occasions, threats, information about threats, giving warnings to various european countries.

the french citizens might not object in the least, but they don't want to have a a hand in how that is gathered. you have a nice and lovely new treaty where the nsa won't touch information through europe, that's fine. >> the point that a lot of the panelists have been making, the point that a lot of the panelists have been making is that we are dealing with huge numbers now. it is a new ball game, isn't it? everybody has a cell phone that can be tracked. the technology is, shouldn't there be some kind of a sitdown? >> mac in 1929, the secretary of

state found out that the u.s. was doing code breaking against foreign countries, he issued his famous statement, gentlemen do not read other gentleman's mail and he shut it down. he also had a treaty in 1929 where everybody, including the europeans and the soviet union agreed never to use war against each other. that is a lovely idea, but it never worked. i don't look human nature for 30 years. supposedly, it is only number two or three in the world.

>> do you agree that perhaps it is crocodile tears on the part of the europeans? most notably, the french that increase the budget for cyber snooping by a huge amount over the last couple of years? >> the french don't have the financial capacity that the french government has put on the nsa. not only is it financing secret operations. it is very easy to sweep everything under the rug, that journalists don't know what they are saying. and if you read the washington post and read the new york times, reuters every day, you can see a lot of documented

instances where the american intelligence agency have lied to court, to congress, and it is very logical that they did not tell the president about it so he did not have to lie himself. we are in a real fog where all the information coming from the nsa, not only targeting europeans, but american citizens. they are built by the tsa which include a whole bunch of information -- >> what is the tsa acco? >> the transport security agency that allows you to go into an

airplane. they are processing informatin on one side tom a from the databanks, from hospital -- on one side, from the databanks, from hospital databanks, and they are making risky populations potential terrorist populations. we all know that this is going to target some racially oriented populations. there is a lot of racial profiling that is going to be happening. they wanted to keep it secret. ultimately, blacks are going to be targeted specifically because statistically, they are more criminally found in the databases.

>> we have a trans-atlantic argument going about this. another republican congressman that says he believes europeans should be thanking the nsa, a few choice words for the french. >> the president can stop apologizing and stop being defensive. the nsa has saved thousands of lives not just in the united states but in france, germany, french want to talk, operations against the united states, the governing industry. in germany, the plot began that led to 9/11. iraq, north korea, we are not doing it for the fun of it. it is together valuable intelligence that helps not just us, but the europeans. >> congressman king points in

that statement to the french in the past doing spying of their own. executives being told the conversations might be bugged. >> in january or february, the first one was china. we have capacities with active protection against cyber threats. there is a huge difference with that and the government.

to invest more than 4 million euros for protections as well as active protections. on top of that, we see a lot of cybersecurity about to train a lot of french people. >> there are a little bit of crocodile tears on the part of the french? >> probably a little on the highest levels of government. you have american officials more in the know saying, trust us. we have saved you from attacks. i don't think it is the french establishment's or any other countries job to take that for granted or to take their word

for it. it is important to have guarantees. nobody is suggesting an international treaty banning spying. but i suggest strengthening rights like needing an arrest warrant and probable cause before you can look at somebody's e-mail. i don't think that is too much to ask. >> between banning spying and what the nsa is doing now, there are degrees? >> there is a wide spectrum. >> they want to have some set of rules, is that doable? >> i wonder how much of this is to have something deliverable to the public for local consumption.

i think it means that this can't go on. i think it is normal for these governments, at least publicly, to stand up for their rights and their citizens rights. they can't implement a total blanket ban, but there are degrees. they can make sure it is respected by american companies and the american government. >> the public relations aspect of it was very clear last friday. >> those that do not share our values, but for the future, we have to change something here. i think the american president sees the necessity of that as well. >> the french president echoed

the intentions to set up those rules for use dropping. the uncharted territory as illustrated by the question put to francois hollande at the summit. >> are you sure today that your mobile phone is not bogged? [laughter] >> we are very careful with nonessential communication which is secured. >> did he tell us about the french president's phone? >> we have a great company in france. >> they don't like to use the encrypted phones. >> it is not easy to use, but is very professional.

>> if there is an encrypted phone and he calls me, can somebody attack? >> it is very difficult. >> the most open technology -- we see a lot of examples in the world where it is infecting -- maybe it was good enough, i don't know. mentioning how the french have also been accused of cyber attacks. the french magazine reported a cyber attack during the time

before the government was at the helm there. unnamed sources said it was definitely sophisticated stuff. pthey wondered aloud if it was't the chinese. now the french press reports it was the nsa and the french quietly told washington to cut it out. do they owe an apology to the chinese over this? >> probably, but the french should be very upset not to have seen it it is possible for the nsa to go through china to attack france. we know from the statistics a few years back that most of the criminal activity in the cyber field came through america. that is where the highest numbers were found.

i think the french and the europeans should be very upset against the americans and i think it is very important to defend the european democracy against the american big brother that we were told feels because we want to talk to other countries, we can be considered as terrorists, and we are not adults in this sense. they have to take care of us. >> that is an important point. from europe, that is the sense that has been brought up by several participants that americans decide that we know what is best for you and we are allowed to spy on you because we know what is best. >> there are interesting facts

about the cyber world. i'm not sure they would be agreed to by many other people. but if you talk about interfering with european affairs, perhaps america shouldn't have interfered back in 1941. >> isn't that easy to say? we are talking about two different things here. >> we are talking about people complaining and moaning that america is interfering and listening to phone conversations. when the u.s. passes government information along about terrorist threats about to be happening, no one minds then. i guess my snide comment about world war ii simply reflects the annoyance by americans who, for

decades, declared nato being a credible deterrent for the soviet union. now nobody wants us to be working on terrorism. so why doesn't america stay home? in the future, if there is a war, we will stay home then, too. >> you can't compare because we are talking about the digital world. today, you can monitor activities concerning 3 billion people that you could not do before. being able to do so with the assistance necessary with service providers in the u.s.. >> private telephone and internet operators. >> no state can do that without the help of the private sector. these people are in silicon

valley and not exactly [indiscernible] that is why europe is beyond this train. i am sure there is a question of cooperation between states. there is a kind of new era of negotiations. when there is someone to say that there is no exception to this. >> all this happening in the context of trade negotiations due to open where cyber commerce figures prominently. i want to thank our guests for being with us from geneva. thank you for being with us here

in the debate.